[QUOTE=loop][B]ما دام الأسلام مش عاجبكم طب سيبو مصر ورحوا امريكا...يعني خففوا...
ما دامكم متطهدين مثل ما تقولون خلاص سيبوا مصر.... مش امريكا حبيبتكم وفيها الدين الصحيح وفيها الجنس وفيها الخمرة وفيها القمار وفيها ماتتمتعوا بها ابصاركم وفيها الفلوس وفيها العاهرات وفيها الكنايس وفيها كل ما تتطلبوه خلاص رحوا ****** انت وياه...[/B][/QUOTE]
Dear Brother
I am talking to you from America, I hope you can come and see how many Muslims live in America and the freedom they have, and they celebrate their religions without fear. In addition, to say to optics leave Egypt and go to America, you forgot that the optics is Egyptians before Islam invade Egypt and force poor Egyptians to be Muslims or be killed. They are Egyptian before your grandfather came from Saudi Arabia ride horse and a sword in his hand to kill. The word Egypt from Copt. Remember my brother the Copts are Egyptians more than you.

[QUOTE=Mena0064]Narrow mind and character assassination!? Allow me to put these words in a more appropriate context.

His Holiness has blessed the country where I live with a visit in the not so distant past and met the immigration minister and other officials who used the golden opportunity to find out more about what is going on in Egypt from the mouth of such a key figure and such a distinguished leader of a minority group, as they have a pile of refugee applications to deal with and they felt the testimony of the Pope of Alexandria would be shed a lot of light on how to deal with these. The Pope gave them the usual speech that we are all brothers in Egypt and that the disturbance is nothing but minor and separated incidents while the Copts in general are living happily and suffering no prosecution or discrimination. It is needless to say what the horrific outcome of this was on the applications of many Christians and Muslims who converted to Christianity and were hoping to be given asylum and refuge. Nearly all of their applications were refused and were they promptly sent back to Egypt!

Do I really need to comment on this?

[/QUOTE]
No, you do not need to comment, but to clarify and justify and do what a respected person would do before he throws stones and cannot back up the data.

For alleged meetings, alleged quotes and alleged outcomes of alleged meetings or quotes and positions have to be proven, or they are useless.
when it comes to a discussion.
I do not think that one should clarify that you are not a reliable source, taking into account your hostility against the Pope.
When you are banished for faith, when you are a great teacher, when you have gained the respect of millions of your people, like Pope Shenouda's history testifies, then you have credibility.
Courage does not have to be associated with being stupid.

[QUOTE]I am not going to launch a personal attack on you like you have been launching on others, if you can’t handle the facts then maybe you should close your eyes and ears like many already have. Most importantly…do not dare accuse and label other of being Heretics just because you disagree with them, this is one of the primary reasons that the situation of the Copts has reached the terrible state that it is in today[/QUOTE]
This one is loaded....
1- Don't you just like it when somebody says he won't use verbal abuse, yet all his words are abuse and unsubstantiated attacks....

2- I understand that you are sensitive concerning the label heretic, and frankly, I do not give a rat's leg for how you feel..... For heresy is heresy and has to be exposed if we are talking about Faith......
..... should it be political discussion, then we will refrain from Faith issues....but is this forum political or faith based...? For if it is political, why the "dialogue" section ? If political, why attack the Pope ? It is an identity problem for the forum that needs to be defined first....

3- You are quite correct about divisions and how they developed and shaped the history of Egypt, but I am not sure how you meant it. But there is nothing to be ashamed about on our part .....

4- My only comment on your first post was regarding the Nativity celebration.....

[QUOTE=contra mundum]No, you do not need to comment, but to clarify and justify and do what a respected person would do before he throws stones and cannot back up the data.

For alleged meetings, alleged quotes and alleged outcomes of alleged meetings or quotes and positions have to be proven, or they are useless.
when it comes to a discussion.
I do not think that one should clarify that you are not a reliable source
[/QUOTE]
Fair enough, I never do expect anyone to take my word as proof.
But I am prepared and able to present to anyone who is interested letters sent by the Ministry of Immigration of the country where I live sent to refugee and asylum applicants stating that they don't consider there to be any danger on their safety in Egypt even though they were muslims who converted to Christianity.
Clearly I have not taped the conversation of His Holiness although I beleive what I claim it reasonably consistent with his policy but I do think the letters mentioned above should substantiate my claims.

[QUOTE=contra mundum]
, taking into account your hostility against the Pope.
[/QUOTE]
What hostility? I was not aware that critisism is considered hostility, I want to make it clear that I am not attacking His Holiness, in contract I wish him a long and fruitful life. I simply disagree with some of his policies and I would like to see a change in direction.
You call that hostility?!

[QUOTE=contra mundum]
When you are banished for faith, when you are a great teacher, when you have gained the respect of millions of your people, like Pope Shenouda's history testifies, then you have credibility.
[/QUOTE]
No one is denying the great things that Pope Shenouda has done, but I guess he has built up the expectation of people like me and I always expect great things from him.
At the same time I do disagree with some of his actions, that does not mean he has done no good, no one can take away his achievments! I don't have to be a yes-man to be a good person in the eyes of the church, do I?

[QUOTE=contra mundum]
Courage does not have to be associated with being stupid.
[/QUOTE]
What does that mean?

[QUOTE=contra mundum]
This one is loaded....
1- Don't you just like it when somebody says he won't use verbal abuse, yet all his words are abuse and unsubstantiated attacks....
[/QUOTE]
what attacks? I was hoping we can keep the discussion subjective and not get distracted with personal accusations? what did I accuse you of?

[QUOTE=contra mundum]
2- I understand that you are sensitive concerning the label heretic, and frankly, I do not give a rat's leg for how you feel..... For heresy is heresy and has to be exposed if we are talking about Faith......
[/QUOTE]
This is just silly, you don't start labelling people and then call them sensitvie if they dislike it. No one is asking your charity to care how anyone feels but it is good manners to respect the people you are directing your words to. I am warning you one last time to avoid provocative language, you are not the only one who can be smart at insulting others. Beleive me this is a talent most Egyptians have...unfortunately.
Now what is the heresy that you are talking about here exactly? it seems to me that you are unsure what heresy means.

[QUOTE=contra mundum]
..... should it be political discussion, then we will refrain from Faith issues....but is this forum political or faith based...? For if it is political, why the "dialogue" section ? If political, why attack the Pope ? It is an identity problem for the forum that needs to be defined first....
[/QUOTE]
That is actually a great point, unfortunately the answer is equally complex. It has been a problem for the Copts for a long time that we lack political leadership. The Church seems to be filling that role more and more and this is much more obvious in Pope Shouda's reign if compared to Pope Kyrollos VI for instance.
Now this is a topic on its own but I guess the end result is that we have a no separation between religious and political leadership, having chosen that path the church must now step up to the role with all its duties and responsibilities including criticism otherwise it must step aside from it altogether.

[SIZE=4]
قالها البابا من قبل

[COLOR=Red]كل قبطى وديع .... إنما فى الحق ضيغم[/COLOR]


تكهنات حول إلغاء احتفالات عيد الميلاد في حالة استمرار أسباب المشكلة

اعتكاف البابا .. مستمر

[COLOR=Red]وترددت في أروقة الكاتدرائية تكهنات بأن البابا يفكر في إلغاء الاحتفالات بعيد الميلاد المجيد في حالة عدم ظهور حلول ايجابية لمشكلات معلقة[/COLOR]


[url]http://www.al-ahaly.com/Archive/15-12-2004/First1.htm[/url]

[/SIZE]


)hr:) 10)10 {{yawka]] {{yawka]] {{yawka]]

Well done Pope Shenouda, we are all behind you.

الان وبعد عودة زوجة الكاهن المتغرر بها الى حظيرة الايمان مرة اخرى بعد ان كانت على وشك الهلاك هل تعتقدوا ان هؤلاء البربر سيتعظوا ويتركونا فى حالنا ام ان اتباع الشيطان لايستطعوا ان يتركوا البشر فى سلام ,اتمنى بعد مااظهره ابطال البحيرة الاقباط ان يفكر البرابرة الف مرة قبل الاقدام على المساس باى من اخواتنا فى مصر اعتقد الرد المرة القادمة سيكون اقوى انشاء الله