My debates with an American Muslim

[Christian]

I've been debating an Afghani Muslim living in the USA for a year or so now , and I want you to tell me your opinions for what I reply to him .
I am not that religious type of a Christian but I have a great faith that the Holy Spirit supports me

The forum that I debate with him in is very big and I would save you the pain of registering there and post the debates here.

He now accuses the Bible of being corrupted between 0-300AD , that is what I replied with :

Your Allah tells us to follow our Bible !!!!!!
Didn't he know it was corrupt ?
Or wasn't it corrupt that time ?

:lol:

Again , he tells us to judge by the book we had at the time of Muhammed , do you know what time was it ? how many centuries after Jesus ?
So , can we conclude that , the Bible wasn't corrupted that time ?
After that time maybe ? ;)

Not yet , wait :

Allah tells Muhammed that Christians and Jews do not need him :D :

Not only that , but your Allah in Quran commands Muhammed to ask us because we know more than him :

Was the Bible altered and corrupted after 700 years ?
Did Christians and Jews agreed on corrupting their Holy Books and collected every copy and translation from all around the world and burnt them to come up with something new ?

Why do I even have to defend my Bible when Quran confirms it is not corrupted :p

Your Quran was talking about Bible as is , but when Muslim scholars started to "actually" read the Bible and found extreme contradictions between it and Islamic teachings , the only execuse "other than that Islam is fake" , was that Bible is corrupted .
They thought that the Bible should have been like the Quran , either in language "I don't mean Arabic language but the teachings and the way God is speaking to men" and structure .
They wanted it to be : The Gospel of Isa and the Torah of Musa .
Yes many people wrote the Bible driven by the Holy Spirit , Jesus was/is God in flesh , and those people wrote down what He said and what He taught .
Don't try your Islamic standards of revealations of Allah on our Bible .
Holy Bible = OT + NT , both are Older , bigger , and have more morality than Quran , can be perectly understood by any one .
Maybe you should read the Bible without any prejudgement to see for yourself , not just read the words , but read between the lines , read with spirit not with eyes .

[Bent_el_Neel]

Hi Christian
I had similar discussions with an Egyptian Muslim...see:
www.copts.com/english

one of the most important points to note is the destruction of the temple in 70AD which is not mentioned in any Gospel...therefore the gospels must have been written before then!!

A good book to read is also Answering Islam, and their website is excellent too.

Islam's problem (or one of its problems anyway) is that they thought "Nassara" or Nazarenes are the same as Christians. Nazarenes don't believe in Jesus' divinity...and theirs was the faith widespread alongside Judaism and idol worshi pin the Arab peninsula at the the time when Mohammad started his "mission".

When they realised that Christians are different to Nazarenes, and that our Bible talks of Jesus Son of God...they thought "oh s**t...that won't do at all!!"
Hence the corrupt Bible hallucination!

PS. Love your signature

[amoni]

with total respect of bent el nile and chris (the thread writer)

first of all what books he is talking about
his quran said believe of the holly books
and they think that the bible has been changed and it is not the true of god
just let him know that the new tastment is attached to the old tastment
then the old tastment also got different over the ages (
so now christans and jews are not been approved by muslims

then where is the true book of christains and jews?what god makes 3 books all different? that god must be crazy or something
and iam sure my god did not choose islam
because the prophet muhamad was not even sure if the quran was from god or satan
he knew it is from god when he sat on his wife's lap

so let him go figure
if he is looking for the truth

and let him read acts 26& 27 when saint paul has been accused of being crazy because he reads a lot of books
saint paul wrote his books before 62
he did not mention the destruction of the temple and he did not mention the miracles of jesus because he heard too many and the spirit wanted him to write accurate
then came saint mark and wrote it down
then came the rest of the apostoles and believe the last bible to be written is saint luke
if you need proffs i am up to it just let me know
if u need any english translations i am here also for you brother
and excause my spelling errors

God bless you
with respect to bent el nile
God bless you 2

[Christian]

Here is his reply :

No Mina, are you really that braindead.

I proved to you that the Quran tells us to not follow your books because they have now become corrupted.

Instead, he says that he has preserved the messages of your books, the original messages that hadn't become corrupt, within the Quran.

The original Injil, the original Zaboor, the original Tawraat, is what he tells us there is no distinction amongst them and the Quran.
That is very clear from those verses that you posted.
Those books however no longer exist.


Once again, since you cant seem to grasp such a simple concept, then it bares repeating:


1) Those whom followed the injil of prophet Isa (Gospel of Jesus) and the tawrot of prophet Musa (Moses Torah) are the ones whom the Quran refers to as People of the Book (ahlil kittab).
2) As I posted before, the Quran reminds us that your books have been distorted, and therefore you are NOT the People of the Book anymore.

Remember this post:

Quote:
Quote:
[005:014] From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, tothe day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they havedone.



Quote:
[002:113] The Jews say: "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say: "The Jews have naught (To stand) upon." Yet they (Profess to) study the (same) Book. Such are the utterances of those who possess no knowledge; but God will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment.




Quote:
[002:120] Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of God,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against God.




Quote:
[002:135] They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with God."





Quote:
[002:140] Or do ye say that Abraham, Isma'il Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Do ye know better than God? Ah! who is more unjust than those who conceal the testimony they have from God? but God is not unmindful of what ye do!

[003:067] Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to God's (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with God.



Quote:
[009:030] The Jews call 'Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. God's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!




Quote:
[023:071] If the Truth had been in accord with their desires, truly the heavens and the earth, and all beings therein would have been in confusion and corruption! Nay, We have sent them their admonition, but they turn away from their admonition.


Also, if the ******ures were pure and not corrupt then this verse wouldnt have been sent:


Quote:
[2:111] Some have said, "No one will enter Paradise except Jews or CHRISTIANS!" Such is their wishful thinking. Say, "Show us your proof, if you are right."




Quote:
[003:065] Ye People of the Book! Why dispute ye about Abraham, when the Law and the Gospel Were not revealed Till after him? Have ye no understanding?


The ahlil kittab (people of the book) that the Quran refers to, which is probably the verses you want to quote, refers to the people whom followed the Tawraat of Musa (pbuh), the Injil of Eisa (pbuh), and the Zaboor of Daoud (pbuh), NOT the Torah that we have today or the Bible that we have today, because these are man-made corrupted books.


You are not part of the ahlil kittab.
Your kittabs are lost, and you are not the same people anymore.

[Christian]

Also, from Surah Maeda, which you chose to ignore:



Quote:
[5:41]O Messenger! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places:they say, "If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!" If any one's trial is intended by Allah, thou hast no authority in the least for him against Allah. For such - it is not Allah's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment.


It says once again that you have changed the words from time to time and from place to place.

This has been going on for thousands of years in both the Christian and Jewish faiths, which is subsequently why you wont answer my question of what happened between 0AD-300+AD



Quote:
[5:42](They are fond of) listening to lies, of devouring anything forbidden. If they do come to thee, either judge between them, or decline to interfere. If thou decline, they cannot hurt thee in the least. If thou judge, judge in equity between them. For Allah loveth those who judgein equity.



So what does it say about the Law that you quoted only a portion of, and PURPOSELY CHOSE TO LEAVE OUT THE REST OF THE VERSE FROM 5:43


HERE IS 5:43 IN ITS ENTIRETY!


Quote:
[5:43] But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.



And what does Allah say happened to your Laws?


Quote:
[5:48] To thee We sent the ******ure in truth, confirming the ******ure that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires,diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath givenyou: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah;it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

[5:49] And this (He commands): Judge thou between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they beguile thee from any of that (teaching) which Allah hath sent down tothee. And if they turn away, be assured that for some of their crime it is Allah's purpose to punish them. And truly most men are rebellious.

[5:50] Do they then seek after a judgment of (the days of) ignorance? But who, for a people whose faith is assured, can give better judgment than Allah?

[5:51]O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to eachother. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.


[5:53] And those who believe will say: "Are these the men who swore their strongest oaths by Allah, that they were with you?" All that they do will be in vain, and they will fall into (nothing but) ruin.

[5:65] If only the People of the Book had believed and been righteous, We should indeed have blotted out their iniquities and admittedthem to gardens of bliss.

[5:66] If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil.


[5:71] They thought there would be no trial (or punishment); so they became blind and deaf; yet Allah (in mercy) turned to them; yet again many of them became blind and deaf. But Allah sees well all that they do.

[5:72] They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and yourLord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden,and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

YOUR ENTIRE FAITH IS BASED ON THIS BELIEF


[5:75] Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth.They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signsclear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!


[5:76] Say: "O people of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by,- who misled many,and strayed (themselves) from the even way.


[5:81] If only they had believed in Allah, in the Prophet, and in what hath been revealed to him, never would they have taken them for friends and protectors, but most of them are rebellious wrong-doers.


[5:111] "And behold! I inspired the disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Messenger: they said, 'We have faith, and do thou bear witness that we bow to Allah as Muslims'".


[5:116] And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say).Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest infull all that is hidden.

ONCE AGAIN, YOUR ENTIRE FAITH IS BASED ON THIS BELIEF


BUT JESUS SAYS:

[5:117] "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witnessover them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wastthe Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.




[SIZE="5"]I am working on a reply for this , but also could use some help or suggestions[/SIZE

[amoni]

ok brother
i will try to answer you tonight i have to take care of some business

God bless you